This just might be good, its a Tasca Firefly, a old Tamiya Tiger (carius edition) some figures and a lot of work.





Cheers/Jan

This is a very cool setting!

Your Tasca Firefly looks superb! I only think the Tiger wouldn't stay straight up as the nose isn't completely flat, it would fall to the back or the the front.

Lars

Nice composition. I can believe the vertial stance of the Tiger. I've seen some 'hulk' shots that are very dramatic and you'd think 'No way', but they happen.

Just a quick thought Fireflies didn't carry a hull gunner the spot was used for extra ammo stowage. Would there have been room for a crewman? Other wise love the concept, I'm tired of all the knocked out Allied armor with Germans motoring by.

Tom

Correct, this is the way it should be, or did we loose the war ?

Don't think so.

Great composition of the vehicles ! G.

Jan,
You might wantto damage the edge the cat dropped over, and I'd open the turret hatches. Anyone bailing out would be in a hurry in case the thing sank deeper.
I think Lars has a point. The drop's not enough for the tank to stay vertical. There would have been some forward momentum as it dropped.
your pics (IMO) say the Tiger stopped at it's balance point, rotated through 90degrees and then slid down the vertical wall. I just can't see it happening that way.
TTFN
tom

Thanks guys - well its still a test setup, so nothing is decided yet. My idea was that right hand track broke, making it turn 90 degrees an ending up in the muddy canal, where it got stuck in the mud - kinda explains the angle.

I would like to maintain the angle, as thats the dramatic effect - and making it more "flat" would kinda spoil that.

I´m going to make the bank higher (stonework) and it will be damaged from the tiger plowing trough it.

Keep em comming!

Cheers/jan

There is some photographic evidence of fireflies with hull machine guns.

Hi there

I had heard that canals when built were lined with thick clay to keep the water from perculating out into the soils around. Maybe someone in Holland could tell you if this is the case there.

If the tank was on the move it would maybe be possible for the clay lining to have been punched through and give support to the tank in that position.

Someone is going to be very unhappy if they pull the plug out though. They will need something bigger than a finger in the dyke to stop the water getting out TEE HEE

Nige

Avoiding water loss in UK canals

To minimise water loss the canal channel was lined with clay, usually to a depth of 3 feet (approximately 1 metre).

The hard, quarried clay was broken into lumps, spread in the channel and wetted.

Cattle would then be driven over the clay so that it was "puddled" into a malleable consistency, which allowed it to be more readily used.

Thanks for all the input, very usefull.

Got a bit done, there will be a stone lining on top of the wall, as you can see I have prepared for some damage - the road got a initial coat. - lots to do, but its bedtime.





Cheers/Jan

Due to my choice of materials, I have to allow for drying time, as I use white glue and ready made wall spackel. So theres a limit to how much I can do in one step, but on the other hand its materials allready availeble, as I live in a house from 1934 under continuing rebuilding ....

I have added the stone topping on the bankwall, added the damage where the tank have ploughed trough - effects are done with catlitter - and made track/wheel marks in the ground work.

Next step will be constructing a small fence from stone and iron that will line the road towards the canal side.

I would have thought a tiger one at that angle would surly seperate from its turret?

milojko Care to tell us where that evidence is? I've never seen any and I have a lot of Sherman pics saved to my hard drive as well as most of the Sherman reference books available.

Nice work Jan. Can I make a suggestion? Try swapping the two turret figures around then they could have the same sightline towards the wrecked Tiger. As for the figure in the hull hatch simply switch him to the other side.

Hi Jan,

I won't bother with the nit-picking, I'll leave that to others , but this really does look like an interesting dio. I'll enjoy following your progress on this

Rudi

Jan It looks really great, good composition, cant wait to see the water added.
A question, and I really hate to even ask, but would the Tiger have Zim? I was under the impression that the Carius mid tiger (at least the one tamiya represents) would have been late enough to get the paste.just curious as this was the first kit I did zimm on.
Anyway, love it and will be keeping an eye on your progress, cheers!

Thanks guys for all the input - keep it coming!

Regarding the angle, its still a few degrees in the right direction so I´m betting that the 11 tons turret is hanging on by sheer will

Eric, the tiger is a old shelf wreck I buildt maybe 15 years ago before zimmerit became a part of my life, the only thing I have done about it yet is cutting it, but there still is a lot to do, I´m planning on:
- replacing the mudscreens with foil,
- remove towcables and attach them to the rear of the tank (failed recovery attemt)
- remove some of the tools (looters)
- leave the hatches open/half open
- wear and tear on the road wheels
- damages zimmerit with putty
- cut of and articulate roadwheels/torsionarms
- and finally a total repaint and weathering.

Cheers/Jan

Looks great Jan!

Hi Jan

Looking very nice and great reuse of the Tiger.

Keep up the good work and I am looking forward to next update

Ole

Thanks Ole, and its here - the update

Have been working on some of the detail, a sewage, stairs if you happen to fall in and the railing to prevent you driving into the canal ... unless you drive a 58 ton Tiger tank





Otherwise I´m working on the building - constructed the basic shape and waiting for it to dry up. I´m not going to do an interior, so the rear will be blanked of - more to follow.

Cheers/Jan

This looks really good Jan, nice details and good scratchbuilding.

Welcome to the club

Claude

remember, a tank driving over an edge, especially one it approached straight on, would drive out over the edge until it reached the balance point after which it would nose down. unless the drop is of sufficient height it's unlikely to end up very close to the vertical edge. again, highly unlikely, but not absolutely impossible. if you watch video of a tank going over a rise you will see a similar thing where the nose will continue straight up into the air in the direction the tank is traveling until the same balance point is reached after which it will tip forward. if enough of an edge gives way to dump the whole thing over, a lot of the edge goes with it. i think even with a perpendicular slip off of an edge, it would be difficult for the unlucky vehicle to end up both near perfectly vertical and close to the edge. i'm basing this on having recovered a couple dozen tracks of varying types in my military career as a mud-diver (recovery specialist). i recovered a D-7 Caterpillar dozer from a lake once that had the edge give out as it operated parallel to it and it was a big slide and drop into the water.

additionally, you have the engine end up in the air. I can't say wit 100% certainty where the balance point is with a Tiger is but i'd assume it's heavier at the rear. i love the dio and the concept otherwise.

Interesting diorama! I like your work on the canal - very realistic. One thing though - wouldn't that Tiger have had zimmerit and a later production vehicle? Maybe its a small thing......

Chris

Chris not all late War German armour had Zimmerit.


Jan lovely work on the canal!. Good luck with the water.

Thanks !




Its not a small thing, ALL tiger I´s except the first few delivered had zimmerit, so its on the to-do list for the tiger - you can see the other things I want to do to Tiger further up in the tread.

Thanks for the imputs on the realism of a tank ending up in this position - allthough realism is important, the dramatic effect allso is in the scope.

The story goes like:
The tiger during retreat is slowly driving along the canal, due to the heavy fighting going on, the maintanance of the tank is lacking resulting in a rupture on the righthand side track. Before the driver can check the speed, the tank curves 90 degrees to the right ending up with critical mass over the edge. The tank slowly tips on the water sliding down the embankment walls ending up in the muddy bottom of the canal.

Due to the tank being solidly embedded in mud, all recovery attemts fails, and the engineers and the crew are forced to retreat without blowing it up.

cheers/Jan

Channel construction depends where you are. The german ones normally use a slopped profile with wide, thick walls/damms (you can stand a tank on the walls) Vertical walls (often metal or concrete covered) where only used under bridges, in harbors and while crossing through towns where the channel was restricted in width and used a box profile. One example, didn't change much since WWII

There is a preserved Firefly turret set on an M4A2 hull in a museum display, but the combination is not original.

The hatch has now been glued shut - but aside from that, would it be used for loading amunition or was the area stuffed with racks for the main ammo so getting anything in and out was impossible ?

Cheers/Jan

Chris not all late War German armour had Zimmerit.


James - Duhhhh! This I know.

Hi

Great looking diorama. Look forward to seeing this progress. I think it looks fine. It's surprising what can happen in real life. You'd think this would not stay as it is but fall back to the ground but clearly it hasn't



Alan